Don’t let politics haunt origin tracing of COVID-19

So, we have a Chinese fella bawling about the fact that it’s likely that Covid came from the Wuhan lab in Wuhan City where the virus was first seen. Calling it a blame game. Deaths should be blamed on those responsible and it’s not political or racist to demonstrate facts.

But why did not the United States pass the "AIDS/HIV Origin Act" or "Swine Flu/H1N1 Origin Act" before? Obviously, because AIDS/HIV did not originate in China, and H1N1 virus was first detected in the U.S.

Because no one in the 1st 2 instances tried to hide the truth, stifled investigation into the origins, gave out false info regarding transmissibility NOR disrupted the WHO's investigations into the origin of the virus,

So, we have a Chinese fella bawling about the fact that it’s likely that Covid came from the Wuhan lab in Wuhan City where the virus was first seen. Calling it a blame game. Deaths should be blamed on those responsible and it’s not political or racist to demonstrate facts.

Exactly.

So, we have a Chinese fella bawling about the fact that it’s likely that Covid came from the Wuhan lab in Wuhan City where the virus was first seen. Calling it a blame game. Deaths should be blamed on those responsible and it’s not political or racist to demonstrate facts.

That is the thing, there is no demonstration of facts being done to prove your claim, several unrelated articles have made very strong points linking the outbreak beyond any reasonable doubt to the market, as expected from a natural introduction, and no epidemiological/molecular/phylogenetic link to the WIV has been offered.

Basing this likehood on imaginary evidence and ignoring very clear contrary evidence is terribly irrational and antiscientific.

The CCP has plenty of responsibility about how it mishandled the original outbreak and has blocked international authorities from investigating the origin of the pandemic, there is no need to make up conspiracies about lab leaks to demand for this responsibility to be recognized, if anything this only makes the defense of the Chinese actions easier because it becomes a red herring that is easy to disprove just by pointing to the scientific evidence.

Except for the facts and experts that say there was a lab leak. The lengths CCP supporters go through. . .

The virus was called out as being "engineered" by the experts very early in 2020. Then lots of activity seemingly happened behind closed doors and then suddenly no one was sure what actually happened.

I don't think it's fair to say that the wet market theory is in any way demonstrably more viable. Why were experts so sure at the beginning it was an engineered virus, likely the result of the very gain of function research being done at the WIV? Why were they then suddenly unsure without any new compelling evidence?

Very surprised that this type of reader editorial, pro-CCP rant was published.

Good timing though as the lab leak is in the news prominently again.

Wondering if the WHO is going to praise China again for its "transparency" ?

Except for the facts and experts that say there was a lab leak. The lengths CCP supporters go through. . .

Which respectable institution of science support that claim? you keep repeating it only to refuse to support this when asked, that clearly shows not only that the claim is not true, but that you understand it.

The virus was called out as being "engineered" by the experts very early in 2020.

No, it was not, that is not something that can be even indicated with the evidence, much less the limited amount available at the beginning of the pandemic, the ones that claimed so were easily and rapidly debunked by actual experts that demonstrated the claim had no merit (and still hasn't).

Then lots of activity seemingly happened behind closed doors and then suddenly no one was sure what actually happened.

The discussion that demonstrated the "proof" offered was invalid was done openly in the scientic channels, even on social media from some of the experts, nothing "behind closed doors" the arguments were examined and found lacking scientifically so they were discarded as they should.

I don't think it's fair to say that the wet market theory is in any way demonstrably more viable.

But that is a personal decision made based on beliefs and bias, not on evidence and scientific arguments, in several topics references that prove this without problem and you have never refuted any of the multiple scientific arguments that support the market as the clear origin of the outbreak in Wuhan. Rejecting something without disproving it first is not an argument.

Why were experts so sure at the beginning it was an engineered virus

That is the thing since they were not there is no need to find the reason. Some people considered it possible but quickly recognized as realistically impossible once evidence was presented, of course those just making invalid claims based on manipulated or misrepresented "evidence" are not people you want to listen to.

Wondering if the WHO is going to praise China again for its "transparency" ?

The transparency refers exclusively to one aportation, the genetic sequencing of the virus, you have claimed this not to be the case, but never provide any evidence that the sequence was false or manipulated? if not then it is valid to call it a transparent contribution.

For the rest of the actions of China during the pandemic the WHO is included in the international authorities calling its lack of transparency and collaboration a problem.

Which respectable institution of science support that claim? you keep repeating it only to refuse to support this when asked, that clearly shows not only that the claim is not true, but that you understand it.

"respectable institution of science"--there's a loaded phrase. You accept the WHO lost its respect for praising China?

Regardless, anyone following news concerning Covid is well aware of current events.

"respectable institution of science"--there's a loaded phrase. You accept the WHO lost its respect for praising China?

Are you then accepting no institution of science support your personal claim? that is a good first step.

Now you have to bring the proof the genetic sequence provided by China was false (else accept this single contribution is actually transparent as said).

There is no "institution of science" in the world. CCP supporters will make up anything to try and continue the cover up.

I'm agreeing with anything anti-CCP on this one.

Covid pandemic sparked by accidental leak from Wuhan lab, US investigation concludes

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/covid-pandemic-sparked-by-accidental-leak-from-wuhan-lab-us-investigation-concludes/ar-AA19YTr1

@virusrex, It was the same experts who said it was engineered who refuted their own claims later. Jeez, are we just making up stuff now?

The ability of the virus to bind to human receptors was not seen in that particular species and there has not been a definitive animal host discovered. It's most likely engineered unless there's a better explanation as to why it suddenly evolved the way it did.

I believe this from, from a legitimate "institution", over the Chinese Communist Party.

the theory claiming COVID-19 jumped from animals to humans can no longer hold the 'presumption of accuracy.'

There is no "institution of science" in the world. CCP supporters will make up anything to try and continue the cover up.

So your argument for not being able to find any support from any institution of science in the world for your personal belief is that there is no such thing in the world?

I think this makes clear more than anything else that you understand that belief to be wrong.

Covid pandemic sparked by accidental leak from Wuhan lab, US investigation concludes

So if the best scientists of the world say the opposite, you still think is better to trust politicians instead?

It was the same experts who said it was engineered who refuted their own claims later. Jeez, are we just making up stuff now?

You have still not proved that claim yet, it is not that experts said it was engineered, it is still you saying they did. If someone comes and writes "they never did it" then this comment would prove yours wrong with the same level of evidence.

The ability of the virus to bind to human receptors was not seen in that particular species and there has not been a definitive animal host discovered.

That is why this pandemic happened now and not before, what is already known is that other viral isolates have a closely related spike protein sequence, there are even already other coronaviruses identified that can jump to humans and use the human ACE2 receptor to infect cells, that those other natural viruses did not originate pandemics on their own is because we were already unders preventive measures against the current one.

 It's most likely engineered unless there's a better explanation as to why it suddenly evolved the way it did.

An appeal to your own authority from an anonymous account is not possible, why do you think is impossible to bring any institution of science that support your claim? are all the scientists of the world wrong?

I believe this from, from a legitimate "institution", over the Chinese Communist Party.

And what are the credentials that prove this institution is scientific? you understand a political committee is not a scientific authority, right? without making a scientific appeal that contradict the different reports that prove beyond rational doubt the natural origin as the hugely more likely explanation this has no weight.

So if the best scientists of the world say the opposite, you still think is better to trust politicians instead? 

Oh, you don't understand that the study was done with scientists in the US? Like in the best scientists in the world?

I mean, you would consider the scientists who decoded DNA to be the best scientists in the world, right?

These US scientists--the best in the world--- say the opposite of what the CCP says.

And as a reminder, the CCP is kind of a political organization, so do you think it is better to trust politicians than scientists?.

How embarrassing--believing a group of politicians were resonsible for the lab leak investigation, Kind of warm in here---seems there was a toasting.

Captured institutions of science are not respectable.

It was the same experts who said it was engineered who refuted their own claims later.

Yes, experts who said in private it was likely engineered and a few days later said publically (without evidence) that it must have emerged naturally...

I'm agreeing with anything anti-CCP on this one.

Yes, the CCP deserves much of the blame, but we should not ignore the US's very important role in this mess.

And what are the credentials that prove this institution is scientific?

Good question.

The below source answers it for you. It discusses the National Laboratories under the Department of Energy. Here are some things they did related to Covid:

-COVID-19 Testing R&D: discovered an effective vaccine for SARS-CoV-2 and laboratory-based diagnostic tests that were critical for protecting vulnerable populations, managing risk to all populations, supporting work strategies, and tracking the evolution of the virus and disease.

-A team of researchers developed an integrated COVID-19 pandemic monitoring, modeling, and analysis capability. 

https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021/01/f82/DOE%20National%20Labs%20Report%20FINAL.pdf

you understand a political committee is not a scientific authority, right?

We do. Do you?

Oh, you don't understand that the study was done with scientists in the US? Like in the best scientists in the world?

What study? no study has been presented, no scientist has said to be involved. Just politicians saying their committee reached this conclusions without presenting any kind of evidence nor scientific discussion to refute the clear evidence that contradicts that conclusion.

I mean, you would consider the scientists who decoded DNA to be the best scientists in the world, right?

What source do you have to say "the scientists who decoded DNA" are the ones personally concluding the lab leak is the origin of the pandemic? making up imaginary things is the contrary of an argument.

These US scientists--the best in the world--- say the opposite of what the CCP says.

Which US scientists? no names, no credentials of any scientist have been presented.

And again the conclusion that the natural origin is the much more likely explanation do not come from the CCP but from every scientific institution of the world of a related field, which is why you have not yet been able to present any that support your claim. Ignore completely what the CCP says, they are not the scientific community that says the lab leak theory is nowhere near as likely as the natural introduction.

How embarrassing--believing a group of politicians were resonsible for the lab leak investigation

Unfortunately people misunderstand what a political commiittee is, or like to pretend they are a group of scientists at least that is now clear.

Captured institutions of science are not respectable.

So according to you every single one of those institutions are captured, using as the criteria exclusively if they say something you can accept or not? that is not a rational position to take. Is as rational as pretending all the scientists and doctors of the world are in a global conspiracy just because they can prove something different from what you want to believe.

Yes, experts who said in private it was likely engineered and a few days later said publically (without evidence) that it must have emerged naturally...

Again, who said this? one thing is to say that without evidence availabe this may be a possibility, another completely different is to say this was the most likely explanation, specially when more and more evidence became available quickly at the beginning of the pandemic that clearly disproved this theory.

Sun Xi, a 1980s China-born alumnus of the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy at the National University of Singapore, is an independent commentary writer based in Singapore.

This just proves what I have always believed.

The LKY School of Public Policy at NUS, modelled on the John F Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, is just a China mouthpiece pretending to be independent.

By giving credibility to wumao talking points about Fort Derick lab, the LKYSPP has proven that its curriculum and 'research' is straight out of a wumao handbook.

But this is not the first time.

Previously it used to employ Huang Jing, an American professor born in China, who tried to influence Singapore's foreign policy to become more favourable towards China instead of the US.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-singapore-politics-idUKKBN1AK181

Another influential professor was Kishore Mahbubani, the ex-Dean of LKYSPP who drew criticism from the PAP government for saying that 'small' states should behave like small states. In other words, not rub China off the wrong way by calling out their actions in the SCS.

https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/kishore-mahbubani-step-down-dean-lee-kuan-yew-school-public-policy

These folks are very well respected in Singapore, ostensibly a US ally, but are on the payroll of China and openly advocate for Singapore to change its foreign policy to become a Chinese ally.

It helps that many Singaporeans (mostly old but many youngsters as well) are pro-China because of their ethnicity and racial pride.

The below source answers it for you. It discusses the National Laboratories under the Department of Energy. Here are some things they did related to Covid:

Again, this brings

-zero names

-zero evidence to support the claim

-zero discussion of the contrary evidence that disproves the claim

-zero demonstrated expertise to oppose the epidemiologists, virologists and biosafety experts that say the laboratory leak is not a realistic explanation.

That means your source is still wholly insufficient against the opinion of the scientific consensus. With people with names and degrees signing reports saying the opposite of what you are trying to claim.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8715

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8337

our analyses indicate that the emergence of SARS-CoV-2 occurred through the live wildlife trade in China and show that the Huanan market was the epicenter of the COVID-19 pandemic.

What arguments do your source have to refute this scientific conclusion?

none? that is because it is not a scientific source.

We do. Do you?

If you understand and still try to use a political committee as a scientific source that means you are on purpose using an invalid source to prove something that is not under their expertise.

no study has been presented, no scientist has said to be involved. Just politicians saying their committee reached this conclusions without presenting any kind of evidence nor scientific discussion to refute the clear evidence that contradicts that conclusion.

Wrong.

The report says their core investigative team was comprised of two attorneys, three research assistants, a China foreign area specialist along with one medical and one veterinarian epidemiologist.

That core group was "supported by an outside scientific advisory group consisting of three former U.S. national high- containment laboratory directors, a medical infectious disease physician, medical epidemiologist, two veterinarians, two biosafety experts, and two molecular biologists. Additionally, technical experts were consulted on topics ranging from specific biosafety equipment and processes, vaccine development and production and animal experimentation."

I will listen to a science institution like Argonne National Laboratory whose resource facilities were used since January 2020 in the Covid-19 crisis, over that of the CCP concerning the lab leak. Https://www.anl.gov/coronavirus

Oh-Argonne is part of the US Department of Energy National Virtual Biotechnology Laboratory. Sounds like the "best scientists in the world" work there. And sounds like a "respectable institution of science." In more plain terms, sounds like a "scientific source."

Your comment do not include any name, data, discussion made about the opposite evidence.

That is what you would need to say the criticism is wrong.

I will listen to a science institution like Argonne National Laboratory whose resource facilities were used since January 2020 in the Covid-19 crisis, over that of the CCP concerning the lab leak.

Who is listeing to the CCP?

A perfectly valid scientific report that disprove the claim made has already been included in the comments as a reference, with no participation from the CCP.

Why misrepresent an international group of people presenting clear evidence of the origin of covid as if it was just a declaration made from the CCP? it makes no sense since the reference is still there for anybody to see.

Talk about flogging a dead horse!

Deaths should be blamed on those responsible

Indeed. Including those deaths caused by people who refused to follow pandemic prevention measures AND bragged about it consistently on the internet. They should be held accountable too.

There is hardly any trace of the pandemic, and people are just working and living as usual to enjoy the previous new life without talking about COVID-19 anymore.

I find that hard to believe, considering the unnecessary hell people were put through.

the “presumption of innocence”, a principle long held by the U.S. itself?

That's very Chinese communist logic.

Reminds me of my tenure in China when the Chinese embassy was bombed by NATO during the Serbia/Croatia conflicts I listen to a speech in English that played the last words of the Chinese victims for dramatic effect. The whole room went mad, even those who didn't understand the speech.

I was asked what I thought of the speech and said "not much" to which I was informed that it was an example of "freedom of speech, like in the West" I wasn't prepared to explain a valid counterpoint and went to away quietly. No point arguing with the indoctrinated

Zero knowledge of "democracy" and how it works but throw some textbook stuff on its proponents out there to make point.

An embarrassing article anyways.

I'm listening to the scientists on this one, as opposed to a communist group.

https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021/01/f82/DOE%20National%20Labs%20Report%20FINAL.pdf

Least we allowed to discuss these matters now. At one time you questioned, lockdowns, masks, vaccines, virus origins etc you were banned even from social media in many instances and called vulgar and beastly names.

Too late though, the damage has been done, by corrupt companies and governments who didn’t follow the science and made a tidy packet out of the pandemic whilst regular folk suffered.

I'm listening to the scientists on this one, as opposed to a communist group.

Indeed. Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus will be pleased.

I'm listening to the scientists on this one, as opposed to a communist group.

The scientists have produced reports, linked already here, that demonstrate (scientifically) the origin is natural.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8715

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8337

Saying they are wrong because you prefer to believe something without any name, evidence or scientific discussion behind it means you are not listening to the scientists, just baselessly claiming they are wrong.

Least we allowed to discuss these matters now

This has always been the case, what has been banned are lies, fabrications and manipulated information, which is completely fine, because they bring nothing to the discussion. If you choose to repeat something that has already been demonstrated false then you should also assume the consequences for doing it, misleading people on purpose is not something anybody should be defending.

vitusrex

Surely you comment in jest? You still think all humans 6 months old and above should have vaccines and boosters when over 90% of the scientists in the world disagree and countries vaccine policies show this.

I called you out over this one many times, you never showed that I said anything unscientific

You still think all humans 6 months old and above should have vaccines and boosters when over 90% of the scientists in the world disagree and countries vaccine policies show this. 

That 90% seems a bit rash. CDC recommends that children get four doses of polio vaccine. They should get one dose at each of the following ages: 2 months old, 4 months old, 6 through 18 months old, and 4 through 6 years old.

I jest you not.

Surely you comment in jest? You still think all humans 6 months old and above should have vaccines and boosters when over 90% of the scientists in the world disagree and countries vaccine policies show this.

What does this have to do with the topic you are commenting on?

The only valid position to take is that people that have a reduced risk from being vaccinated should be. Your claim is just an obvious misrepresentation, not every country have active transmission, not every country still have unvaccinated population.

I called you out over this one many times, you never showed that I said anything unscientific

You have repeatedly claimed the scientists are against this, but have failed to produce even one institution that says vaccines are more risky than the infection, by this point is is clear even you know your claim is false.

Rejecting the scientific consensus just because you want to believe differently definetely can be called an unscientific position to take.