Russia strikes Odesa cathedral; Putin claims counteroffensive 'failed'

Can believe anything either of these nutjobs says. Both deluded and creating their own interpretations of reality.

Time to end this lark, get round a table like men and stop the meaningless loss of life.

Russia launched a wave of attacks on the Black Sea port this week, after exiting a deal allowing the safe passage of cargo ships between Moscow, Kyiv, Istanbul and the U.N.

didn’t Ukraine “do something” right before that which caused both the termination of the deal and these retaliatory attacks?

Russia strikes Odesa cathedral

Putin's religious war continues, and his devout followers continue to worship his warmongering . And China plus other anti-west, pro=authoritarian states in addition to other extreme right political groups continue to support Putin's attacks on non-military targets.

Destruction of a national treasure that wasn't a military target.

Didn’t Zelensky ban Orthodox churches?

KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — Ukraine on Friday banned the activities of religious organizations “affiliated with centers of influence” in Russia and said it would examine the links between the Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox churches.

There is no reason why Putin needed to bomb and destroy the cathedral.

"There is no counteroffensive," Lukashenko said at the meeting, before being interrupted by Putin: "There is one, but it has failed."

Putin is desperate to kill support for give weapons to Ukraine. His actions with the grain deal mean that the West will support Ukraine for years rather than give Putin control of the Black Sea and the ability to cause world hunger.

Blacklabel

Didn’t Zelensky ban Orthodox churches?

No. Just the Russian spies inside them.

Blacklabel

Russia launched a wave of attacks on the Black Sea port this week, after exiting a deal allowing the safe passage of cargo ships between Moscow, Kyiv, Istanbul and the U.N.

didn’t Ukraine “do something” right before that which caused both the termination of the deal and these retaliatory attacks?

Nothing that would have stopped these attacks. Russia wants to stop Ukraines ability to sell grain to push up prices. Russia is hurting for income.

falseflagsteve

Can believe anything either of these nutjobs says. Both deluded and creating their own interpretations of reality.

Nope. I trust nothing that Putin or Lukashenko says at all.

Nothing that would have stopped these attacks

but something that caused them, obviously.

didn’t Ukraine “do something” right before that

Yeah, they're likely behind the bombing of a bridge used to supply weapons to Russian troops to kill Ukrainians.

which caused both the termination of the deal and these retaliatory attacks?

Back at you. Did Russia do something to cause these retaliatory attacks?

If it was ht by the missile the Ukrainian regime claims hit, the church would no longer exist. Western regimes know full well it was hit by a stray Ukrainian air defense missile.

On the other hand, video has emerged from 2 days ago if an entire Ukrainian armored division surrendering to the Russians without firing a shot. 28 Leopard 2A4 tanks, 21 PT-91 tanks, 8 Krab guns and 30 T-72 tanks. Armored and mechanized units also use 1,098 BWP-1 infantry fighting vehicles. No count was given for the number of soldiers but from the video it seems about 1000.

Twitter is trying but at this point, not succeeding in censoring the video. Mostly because it's all over Telegram. If not for Telegram, probably the only Russian media would be able to share it but that is banned in all of Europe except Serbia. So lucky we live in "a free society" where one can practice "free speech".

Sven

That sounds like a lot and would be a disaster for Ukraine.

sorry, but I don’t know what Telegram is.

Lukashenko told Putin he was already tired of the Wagner group.

If it was ht by the missile the Ukrainian regime claims hit, the church would no longer exist. Western regimes know full well it was hit by a stray Ukrainian air defense missile

First of the day. A bit late.

Which regimes know this, how do they know this, and how do you know they know this?

That sounds like a lot and would be a disaster for Ukraine.

sorry, but I don’t know what Telegram is.

https://twitter.com/konecna_romana/status/1682621175795417095?s=20

Telegram is an app which is hard to explain. It's kind of like Skype, Line, Twitter rolled into one but different. You can find it by searching for "Telegram download" and then you have to find channels you are interested in.

The video above probably won't be up for long. I suspect the only reason it's still up is because it's not English or Russian tweet.

As Putin is a christian and the cathedral building is a place for christians to worship then this is not going to be a strategic target for either side.

And now?

The Ukrainians take revenge and Russia replies and destroys more of Ukraine.

When does it end?

When does the hatred begin to lessen?

When all are dead?

So it was “destroyed” but the outside is intact but only the inside is severely damaged?

then it’s a 18th century UNESCO cultural heritage site yet was “demolished” in 1936 and rebuilt in the 1990s?

this is one of the “good” Orthodox churches that wasn’t banned or is it one of the ones filled with “Russian spies”?

narratives are all over the place.

Blacklabel

Nothing that would have stopped these attacks

but something that caused them, obviously.

Yes, the cause is Russia is hurting for income.

Therefore, Russia wants to stop Ukraines ability to sell grain to push up prices.

this is one of the “good” Orthodox churches that wasn’t banned or is it one of the ones filled with “Russian spies”?

Not just spies. The head of the Russian Orthodox church openly stated that any Russian soldiers killed fighting in Ukraine would have their sins forgiven, and go to heaven.

Do you think the US would allow a mosque to operate in the US if it's leader was openly advocating for it's worshippers to wage Jihad against the US, and that fighters would live in paradise? I think not.

Sven

On the other hand, video has emerged from 2 days ago if an entire Ukrainian armored division surrendering to the Russians without firing a shot. 28 Leopard 2A4 tanks, 21 PT-91 tanks, 8 Krab guns and 30 T-72 tanks. Armored and mechanized units also use 1,098 BWP-1 infantry fighting vehicles. No count was given for the number of soldiers but from the video it seems about 1000.

Don't believe everything you see on the internet. ;-)

So a grain deal was in place and Odessa was not being attacked.

then Zelensky had the bright idea to attack the Crimea bridge again and kills civilians again but then everyone celebrated?

looking back, how smart was that really, especially at that timing?

Is Putin really running things?

Is he just someone’s marionette?

Absolutely disgraceful act by a disgraceful country.

Blacklabel

So a grain deal was in place and Odessa was not being attacked.

then Zelensky had the bright idea to attack the Crimea bridge again and kills civilians again but then everyone celebrated?

Had no bearing on the grain attacks.

looking back, how smart was that really, especially at that timing?

Quite smart. It interrupts Russian supplies and morale.

Taiwan

Which one?

That sounds like a lot and would be a disaster for Ukraine.

FFS, you are correct that it would be a disaster. Thankfully, that video is not what the Russian propagandists are purporting it to be. It's Russian disinfo, and this is how it spreads.

UChose

i dunno mate, I haven’t viewed it you see, so unable to comment unless I have the chance to.

Here you go Sven and FFS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeH6NNeXB3g

You are welcome.

You know, it didn't exactly take a ton of detective work to suss out this bit of Russian disinfo.

Sven - are you going to retract your above assertion, or no? If not, why?

The Crimea bridge attack the day before the grain deal was to be renewed gave the "excuse" to cancel it.

Russia could attack Odessa every single day since then in "retaliation", doing huge amounts of damage.

I also dont see the impact on morale or supplies that is claimed.

Seems Zelensky made a grave error, playing into Russia's hands.

Guess that is what happens when you have a comedian running your military strategy.

FFS - well, now you have a couple of sources for this video. A recent Twitter one or the YouTube one from a month ago. Take a gander and let us know what you think.

Absolutely disgraceful act by a disgraceful country.

Russia obviously. It's a fact.

The Crimea bridge attack the day before the grain deal was to be renewed gave the "excuse" to cancel it.

No it didn’t. Peskov said the end of the grain deal was not influenced at all by the bridge attack. It was not “cancelled” either. It was just not renewed. The difference between what actually happened and what you’re suggesting happened is surprisingly huge.

UA came one step closer to victory....as their spring offensive have crushed Russia.

if you are disagree you must be a russian troll.

The grain deal?

refused to extend, no longer valid, terminated, halted, ended, stopped, suspended, cancelled.

right after the Crimea bridge attack.

All words that have been used, all meaning the same thing.

Do you know what an excuse is? Peskov has absolutely not used it as an excuse. You are wrong.

Blacklabel

Russia have no reason and will never negotiate with terrorist regime in Kiev.

no extra words are needed.

Volodymyr is getting what he have asked for.

action reaction.

Putin, in between dodging revolts, once again committing war crimes....

He attacks churches, universities, shopping malls, and child care centers...

Zelensky attacks key military re-supply bridges and large ammunition depots...

Pretty easy to see who will win this one...the only question is whether Putin will fall out a window or come down with a bout of polonium poisoning before he has to accept his humiliating defeat...

since when are any of you believing official Russian government spokesmen?

isnt that just "Russian mis/disinformation"?

I don’t, but it was actually said by both sides before the bridge attack that the deal was unlikely to be extended.

"Peskov: Strikes on Odesa were revenge for Crimean Bridge attack"

https://kyivindependent.com/kremlin-peskov-odesa-strikes/

Same guy?

Strikes on Odessa yes. Grain deal no.

Putin wasn't going to renew the grain deal even before the bridge attack.

Blacklabel

The grain deal?

refused to extend, no longer valid, terminated, halted, ended, stopped, suspended, cancelled.

right after the Crimea bridge attack.

All words that have been used, all meaning the same thing.

And yet Russia itself tied renewal of the grain deal to a 'withdrawal of sanctions on supplies of Russian grain and fertilisers to world markets'.

Obviously, sanctions are working and Putin is desperate. Removing Ukrainian grain from the market will raise prices, which also gains Russia money. The cost? Millions of undernourished Africans.

since when are any of you believing official Russian government spokesmen?

Since when they are demands for Russia doing something.

Eastman

Russia have no reason and will never negotiate with terrorist regime in Kiev.

And yet, unlike the regime in Moscow, the regime in Kiev isn't terrorist.

Strikes on Odessa yes. Grain deal no.

oh ok so believing that this is the very first time a Russian press spokesman hasn’t lied (a big if) then that would make me 50% wrong at worst.

doesn’t match up with the level of your outrage. Your comment made it sound like there was zero truth to anything I said.

The difference between what actually happened and what you’re suggesting happened is surprisingly huge.

100 mercenaries demilitarized after Russian bombing on a hotel in Nikolaev

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMpl7VuCBE

Russia is targeting Mercenaries not civilians.

doesn’t match up with the level of your outrage. Your comment made it sound like there was zero truth to anything I said.

I specifically quoted the grain deal part of your comment so there should have been no confusion. I apologize that it wasn’t enough for you.

@nemui

Putin's full speech on the Black Sea Initiative about grain crops facts and figures

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50Atf0VMOmE

So to “get me” (as only 50% wrong) you have to admit a Russian press spokesman is not lying when I say he is.

Ouch. what a dilemma for you.

couidnt have waited one more day to see if the grain deal was extended or not before attacking the bridge?

@nosuke - bridge attack not mentioned. Interestingly, that’s exactly what I’m saying.

@Blacklabel - no dilemma. No outrage. Maybe watch nosuke’s YouTube vid.

nosuke

Putin's full speech on the Black Sea Initiative about grain crops facts and figures

And as you can see in the speech, he wants sanctions lifted on the export of Russian fertiliser. He also wants access to the SWIFT banking system.

In other words, it's about removing sanctions.

And then there are those who say that sanctions aren't working.

They are. This proves it.

"FFS, you are correct that it would be a disaster. Thankfully, that video is not what the Russian propagandists are purporting it to be."

I agree, this video seems to be at least a month old and the account that posted it seems dodgy. Also the fact that its highly unlikely that a whole UAF armored division would surrender, and if it did it would be all over Russian official media as it would be a huge coup. It is not. YouTube version indicates this is a POW swap between Wagner and UAF near Bakhmut some time ago.

"There is no reason why Putin needed to bomb and destroy the cathedral."

Agree. There is zero benefit for Russia to target the cathedral , only a lot of potential world outrage. As such this would support the version that it was either a stray missile / debris that caused it. Whether it was Russian or Ukranian will no doubt be debated for a long time. Either way , serious damage to a beautiful UNESCO listed heritage.

wow, now random YouTube accounts and Russian press spokesmen are the source of accurate and truthful information. from the video description-

The President of the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin explained some of the points of the Black Sea Initiative with facts and figures especially grain exports by Russia and Ukraine. Russian share in the world grain market is 20%, and Ukraine is less than 5%. Claims that only Ukrainian grain feeds the world's hungry are speculation and lies, said Putin.

Oh really? So its lies that lack of Ukraine grain is causing Africa to starve?

it also says only 3% of the grain was ever sent to Africa so far. most goes to rich EU countries.

Can believe anything either of these nutjobs says. Both deluded and creating their own interpretations of reality.

FFS, I assume you’re talking about Putin and Lukashenko and agree 100%!

As soon as Putin cuts his losses, admits defeat, and pulls the Russian invaders out of Ukraine it will he time to sit around that table you often mention and negotiate reparations.

Blacklabel

The President of the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin explained some of the points of the Black Sea Initiative with facts and figures especially grain exports by Russia and Ukraine. Russian share in the world grain market is 20%, and Ukraine is less than 5%. Claims that only Ukrainian grain feeds the world's hungry are speculation and lies, said Putin.

Oh really? So its lies that lack of Ukraine grain is causing Africa to starve?

Yes. Because of higher grain prices.

it also says only 3% of the grain was ever sent to Africa so far. most goes to rich EU countries.

Your statement belies a lack of understanding of economics. Where individual shipments of grain comes from is irrelevant. It's the global cost of grain that matters. So if Russia sends its grain to Africa, because grain prices are higher due to the lack of Ukrainian grain, means that they won't be able to afford it.

Russia's latest strike on Odesa on Sunday killed two people and severely damaged a historic Orthodox cathedral, drawing a vow of retaliation from Ukraine's leader.

Hard to believe, considering Zelensky's regime has been attacking the orthodox church for quite some time, and Putin complaining about it.

But since this is what Zelensky's regime said happened, I guess we must believe it....

Wallace...

There is no reason why Putin needed to bomb and destroy the cathedral.

That is correct. Which is exactly why it wouldn't be a target. There are many reasons why something that was not the intended target gets hit. That is if the cathedral was actually hit with a Russian missile and not a stray Ukrainian anti air munition or deliberate sabotage for propaganda.

Russian nihilism again.

Blacklabel

Ukraine is less than 5% of the total and only 3% of that less than 5% was sent to Africa anyway.

That's misinformation. According to the UN's Joint Coordination Centre, 57% of the foodstuffs exported from Ukraine over the past year went to developing countries and 43% to developed countries.

Russia cited Ukraine's failure to export more grain to poorer countries as one of the reasons it pulled out of the deal.

However, the UN says that Ukraine has supplied 725,000 tonnes of grain to the World Food Programme (WFP), which was sent as humanitarian aid to Afghanistan, Djibouti, Ethiopia, Kenya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen.

The EU says that over the past year, Ukraine supplied the WFP with more than 80% of all its grain, compared to 50% before the war.

they won’t be missed.

They will be missed. Grain prices will become too expensive for African countries and the WFP will be short 80% of its grain that it received from Ukraine last year.

Mr Kipling

Wallace...

   There is no reason why Putin needed to bomb and destroy the cathedral.

> That is correct. Which is exactly why it wouldn't be a target. There are many reasons why something that was not the intended target gets hit. That is if the cathedral was actually hit with a Russian missile and not a stray Ukrainian anti air munition or deliberate sabotage for propaganda.

Putin bombed the cathedral out of pure spite and hatred. The missile attack came from the direction of the Black Sea.

"That's misinformation. According to the UN's Joint Coordination Centre, 57% of the foodstuffs exported from Ukraine over the past year went to developing countries and 43% to developed countries."

Top 5 grain recipient countries of the Black Sea Grain intiative as of latest data July 23, 2023 by UN Black Sea Grain Initiative Joint Coordination centre - China, Spain, Turkiye, Italy, Netherlands.

https://www.un.org/en/black-sea-grain-initiative/data

The issue lies with which countries are classified as "developing" under the UN program,s guidelines. China and Turkey ( which were the No1 and No3 recipients respectively) are, Spain which was No.2 is not. Countries which most of us would see as truly the poor, developing destinations such as the ones you quoted from the United Nations World Food Program shipment statistics received the volume you stated -

"*over 725 000 tonnes of wheat left Ukrainian ports to Ethiopia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, Kenya and Djibouti during the implementation of the initiative. "https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/infographics/ukrainian-grain-exports-explained/*

For context those 725 thousand tons were out of total shipments of 33 million tons. *"As of July 2023, almost 33 million tonnes of grain and other foodstuffs had been exported via the Black Sea Grain Initiative."*

La vie douce

Top 5 grain recipient countries of the Black Sea Grain intiative as of latest data July 23, 2023 by UN Black Sea Grain Initiative Joint Coordination centre - China, Spain, Turkiye, Italy, Netherlands.

The issue lies with which countries are classified as "developing" under the UN program,s guidelines. China and Turkey ( which were the No1 and No3 recipients respectively) are, Spain which was No.2 is not.

Why is that an issue?

The big point of all of this is that Ukraine selling its grain lowers food prices, which allows poor African countries to buy the grain:

*Almost 33 million tonnes of grain were shipped from Ukraine under the deal, and world food prices declined by roughly 20% as a result, according to the UN's Food and Agriculture Organisation.*

For context those 725 thousand tons were out of total shipments of 33 million tons. 

As a donation, and considering Ukraine is under attack, it is quite substantial.

Why is that an issue?

It is an issue because it gives a perception to most readers that majority of the grain goes to poor, developing countries such as the ones you yourself quoted ,Ethiopia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia....etc.

Clearly that is not the case as UN official statistics indicate top 5 recipients are not what most people would perceive as "developing " - China, Spain, Turkiye, Italy, Netherlands. If you do not see the issue then there is nothing more to add.

https://www.un.org/en/black-sea-grain-initiative/data

For context those 725 thousand tons were out of total shipments of 33 million tons.  - As a donation, and considering Ukraine is under attack, it is quite substantial.

It is not a Ukranian donation. United Nations World Food Programe has bought the grain stock from Ukraine. According to its own official statistics as of July 2023, the programme had bought 80% of its grain stock from Ukraine, up from 50% before the war. Just pointing out correct information here. Facts, not emotions.

Wallace...

Putin bombed the cathedral out of pure spite and hatred. The missile attack came from the direction of the Black Sea.

Neither you nor I have any idea what if anything hit the cathedral. But you can be sure that if the Russians hit it by accident or if it was a Ukrainian defensive missile that did the damage, neither would tell the truth. That leads us to what is the most likely senario... Which is both of the above. There is no benefit to the Russians by bombing the cathedral. And childish "Putin is spiteful or evil" comments are just from the propaganda play books for kids.

Putin bombed the cathedral out of pure spite and hatred. The missile attack came from the direction of the Black Sea."

Disagree. Putin is a very calculating individual, intentional targeting of the cathedral only results in very negative PR for him, there is zero benefit in bombing it on purpose. It was most likely hit by stray / shot down missile.

The Russian missiles came from the Black Sea and same hit the grain warehouses. Putin hates Ukraine and NATO, that much has been clear for a long time. He believes the whole of Ukraine belongs to Russia. Putin is spitful. The Crimea bridge was his pet project and now he can't even protect it.

La vie douce

It is not a Ukranian donation.

Sorry, my mistake.

Why is that an issue?

It is an issue because it gives a perception to most readers that majority of the grain goes to poor, developing countries such as the ones you yourself quoted ,Ethiopia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia....etc.

You miss the point again. I keep making the point that Ukraine selling its grain lowers food prices. It doesn't matter where the individual shipments go, the price is the whole point, and under the deal food prices went down 20%, which they won't do this year.

Big winner: Russia get more money for its grain. Big loser: African countries.