Russia's defeat or Putin's ouster. Putin has so much ego involved and that means fear of looking weak. This is all he knows; he is devoid of any advanced consciousness in any sense. He is just a silly, basic bully.
An internal coup within Russia and the end of Putin. But that could lead to something even worse, depending on who orchestrates. We can but wish for something better.
In any case it WILL happen. Dictators never last forever.
Elimination of the land bridge. I'm honestly not sure what will happen if that doesn't happen but it will be way more expensive to setup the defenses to hold the hordes back.
When Raytheon, Lockheed, et al in the military industrial complex and their pol handlers start losing money. Already there are "secret" talks about ending it. How secret is secret when the media knows?
@kyushibill: I'd be a lot more concerned if some kind of diplomatic back channels hadn't been kept opened throughout. 'Ending It' on whose terms though?
first at all this confict should not even started.
there is no military solution of conflict.
UA have zero chance to win over Russia even with fresh supplies of weaponry,money and media support from the west.zero chance.
Russia at other hand have enough of stock of weapons,human power,natural resources and have no reason to be speedy since it makes more tired other side of conflict.Just see consequences in international trade,situation in EU/inflation etc/...when antirussian sanctions have backfired badly.
one and only way to stop this is to make a real ceasefire,start to talk seriously about peace.
stop funding UA with weapons,money.
guarantee status of UA as neutral country,fix new UA borders based on reality of these days.
guarantee same rights for all UA citizens regardless if they are ukrainians,russians,polish,rusyns,romanians...to be able to study in their own language,to be able to keep their own languages,cultures,religions.
guarantee by law to outlaw all of fascists groups like Azov etc,denounce Bandera as UA national hero...enough for start?
most important is that there will be no repeating of situation from spring of 2014 with all of consequences.
Ukraine and Russia share a land border that is nearly 2000 kilometers long. That’s hardly a “bridge,” and nobody is going to dig a 2000-km moat around Ukraine.
And if you’re talking about Crimea, most of this war has revolved around provinces that aren’t on the Crimean peninsula. Yes, Ukraine wants Crimea back, but they have a little problem in Donetsk first.
Ukraine and Russia share a land border that is nearly 2000 kilometers long. That’s hardly a “bridge,” and nobody is going to dig a 2000-km moat around Ukraine.
Sea coast is pretty darn valuable. If the Kerch Bridge, the Black Sea fleet, and Crimea are all being shelled on the daily, Putin will get in his thick skull where he went wrong.
guarantee status of UA as neutral country,fix new UA borders based on reality of these days.
No @Eastman: That's only a reality in the heads of Russian and this who support Russia like yourselves. You think if Ukraine relinquishes that land that be the last place that Putin wishes to conquer? Unlikely. There are other parts of other countries he has interest in, as you well know.
@mikeylikesit: Possible but highly unlikely. @Blacklabel - The US and theWest will keep providing, even if its Trump in the White House come Jan 2025. Sorry to disappoint you.
first at all this confict should not even started.
You know who is responsible and what tsar he trying to emulate.
there is no military solution of conflict.
UA have zero chance to win over Russia even with fresh supplies of weaponry,money and media support from the west.zero chance.
Russia at other hand have enough of stock of weapons,human power,natural resources and have no reason to be speedy since it makes more tired other side of conflict.
Russia only has 4x the population, which is overcomable. Any other advantages have been and will continue to be overcome due to Russian incompetence and demoralization.
Just see consequences in international trade,situation in EU/inflation etc/...when antirussian sanctions have backfired badly.
Guess it is good the primary backer is the US, then. Haven't even noticed Putin's war here.
one and only way to stop this is to make a real ceasefire,start to talk seriously about peace.
A ceasefire backed by every NATO weapon except nukes, yeah.
stop funding UA with weapons,money.
guarantee status of UA as neutral country
Russia can't afford either demand or enforce them.
fix new UA borders based on reality of these days.
I suspect Tsar Putin wanted more than just a few scraps from this escapade.
guarantee same rights for all UA citizens regardless if they are ukrainians,russians,polish,rusyns,romanians...to be able to study in their own language,to be able to keep their own languages,cultures,religions.
Russia won't be guaranteeing anything because the so-called Russian speakers are already under their control. They didn't give a damn about the others, either, I'm sure.
guarantee by law to outlaw all of fascists groups like Azov etc,denounce Bandera as UA national hero...enough for start?
Russia won't be dicatating any nonsense provisions, particularly when they are the chief fascists.
most important is that there will be no repeating of situation from spring of 2014 with all of consequences.
Russia's invasions will be prevented by the NATO weapons. Ukraine will be permanently as hostile to Russia as a country can be.
how would supporting them indefinitely until we run of out money and weapons for ourselves betray my country?
Because your ability to feed yourself depends on the US not being the only country in the world not under the thumb of the dictator cabal of Russia and China.
The two sides have mutually exclusive demands - neither can accept what the other wants in order to end the war - so the fighting will go on until the situation changes enough that one of the sides change their demands to something it is possible for the other side to agree to.
This is possible, though hard to predict since events on the ground have already radically shifted each sides' expectations as the war has progressed.
In the first few weeks of the war there were some negotiations and Russia probably could have gotten a deal that, if it were offered today, it would jump at. That was because with the Russian army bearing down on Kyiv the Russians had a lot of leverage, and the Ukrainians were way more willing to compromise.
But the Russians themselves at that point had different demands than they do today - they still thought they could capture all of Ukraine and weren't really willing to accept anything short of Ukrainian surrender. While If Russia had just demanded Ukraine recognize Russian control of Crimea and the Donbass at that point, it seems possible that Ukrainian leaders facing the risk of defeat might have agreed to it.
When the Russian advance on Kyiv was defeated and the Ukrainians started pushing the Russians back elsewhere though, everything changed and Russia lost its dominant position in negotiations. Russia couldn't credibly threaten Kyiv, and Ukraine became way less willing to negotiate on anything short of Russia leaving all Ukrainian territory.
We're pretty much stuck until one side gets some leverage over the other and can force negotiations to progress really.
Wars are started by USA's war equipment industries.
They make a ton of money making all types of war needs and they line the pockets of the politicians.
If they find another place for USA to be confrontational and dupe another country into war, they will move on from Ukraine to the new funding (war) grounds.
Russia's invasion of Ukraine was started by Russia invading Ukraine...because... your sentence is unfinished...
Nothing left to finish. If Russia had an issue with NATO it could have raised it like an adult rather than making demands and saying it is go time for no immediate reason. If it had an issue with the shelling in the Donbas it could have brought in observers like an adult. If it had concerns about Nazis... well, it could have sorted out its own problems first.
Russia's invasion of Ukraine was started by Russia invading Ukraine...because...
...because Putler surrounded himself with yesmen who let him think it would be a walk in the park, Ukrainians would welcome russian troops with hugs and flowers, there would be a victory parade in Kyiv within a week.
...because Putler never got over the loss of the Soviet Union and thought it was his destiny to recreate it.
...because Putler had no intention of sticking to the agreements that obliged him to respect and protect Ukraine's sovereignty.
....because Putler is a lying weasly wannabe tzar.
Putin gone will not end the war, he's not alone. If he's threatened by foreign force, he'll launch the nukes. Only thing that could end his regime without ending the world, is the age-old peasants' revolt.
Nobody here knows anything. Am I the only one? To end the war it would take a surrender or mutual agreement. Easy. Why is this even being asked and argued about?
Nobody here knows anything. Am I the only one? To end the war it would take a surrender or mutual agreement. Easy. Why is this even being asked and argued about?
Yeah, a mutual agreement that Russia screwed up after being turned out on its rear.
Maybe similar to what happened in Afghanistan against the Mujahideen. A long protracted war with continued fierce resistance from the Ukrainians. Eventually a change in leadership in Russia and a withdrawal.
Maybe similar to what happened in Afghanistan against the Mujahideen. A long protracted war with continued fierce resistance from the Ukrainians. Eventually a change in leadership in Russia and a withdrawal.
Yeah, 10 years.
If Biden loses or has a health problem and cannot run, perhaps things change.
It will end when Ukraine / NATO accept the reality, we’ll, they already know how the borders will look when this conflict is over. That is fairly similar to how they are at present. Of course they will not say this in public but that is the reality. Sad that many more Ukrainian and Russians will die before the inevitable happens.
I don't think it's so simple. There was war of a kind in east Ukraine before the Russian invasion. What would the people from those areas do if Russia moved out? I still don't hear anyone saying the people of those areas should decide their future.
It will end when Ukraine / NATO accept the reality, we’ll, they already know how the borders will look when this conflict is over. That is fairly similar to how they are at present. Of course they will not say this in public but that is the reality. Sad that many more Ukrainian and Russians will die before the inevitable happens.
So Russia ruined its international reputation and its trade with the west for a land bridge when they had a sea one already? Pretty meager outcome for them. I'm glad you acknowledge this is the most they will get, though.
John Kirby, the U.S. National Security Council spokesperson, said in Washington. “They’ve got reforms they have to work out. Rule of law, good governance, political reforms that need to be done, and they’re at war right now … Eventually, yes, NATO will be in the forefront for them, but now is not the time for that.”
such a kind way to say they are corrupt.
and that they have to make some actual progress in the proxy war after being give 100s of billions in money and weapons.
John Kirby, the U.S. National Security Council spokesperson, said in Washington. “They’ve got reforms they have to work out. Rule of law, good governance, political reforms that need to be done, and they’re at war right now … Eventually, yes, NATO will be in the forefront for them, but now is not the time for that.”
such a kind way to say they are corrupt.
They are coming out of a corrupt Russian influenced system and martial law from having to kick the Russians out.
and that they have to make some actual progress in the proxy war after being give 100s of billions in money and weapons.
I'd say turning the Russians back from Kyiv, Kharkiv, and Kherson ain't nothing.
I don't think it's so simple. There was war of a kind in east Ukraine before the Russian invasion. What would the people from those areas do if Russia moved out? I still don't hear anyone saying the people of those areas should decide their future.
You're putting the cart before the horse. You don't decide if the people of an area want to separate from their nation while they are under forceful occupation by a foreign invader. You expel the foreign invader, and let the people decide democratically how they want to proceed.
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Moonraker
Russia's defeat or Putin's ouster. Putin has so much ego involved and that means fear of looking weak. This is all he knows; he is devoid of any advanced consciousness in any sense. He is just a silly, basic bully.
theResident
An internal coup within Russia and the end of Putin. But that could lead to something even worse, depending on who orchestrates. We can but wish for something better.
In any case it WILL happen. Dictators never last forever.
TaiwanIsNotChina
Elimination of the land bridge. I'm honestly not sure what will happen if that doesn't happen but it will be way more expensive to setup the defenses to hold the hordes back.
kyushubill
When Raytheon, Lockheed, et al in the military industrial complex and their pol handlers start losing money. Already there are "secret" talks about ending it. How secret is secret when the media knows?
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/ukraine-secret-talks-us-officials-russians-war-kremlin-rcna93092
Aly Rustom
Putin's demise or a Russian civil war.
theResident
@kyushibill: I'd be a lot more concerned if some kind of diplomatic back channels hadn't been kept opened throughout. 'Ending It' on whose terms though?
Eastman
first at all this confict should not even started.
there is no military solution of conflict.
UA have zero chance to win over Russia even with fresh supplies of weaponry,money and media support from the west.zero chance.
Russia at other hand have enough of stock of weapons,human power,natural resources and have no reason to be speedy since it makes more tired other side of conflict.Just see consequences in international trade,situation in EU/inflation etc/...when antirussian sanctions have backfired badly.
one and only way to stop this is to make a real ceasefire,start to talk seriously about peace.
stop funding UA with weapons,money.
guarantee status of UA as neutral country,fix new UA borders based on reality of these days.
guarantee same rights for all UA citizens regardless if they are ukrainians,russians,polish,rusyns,romanians...to be able to study in their own language,to be able to keep their own languages,cultures,religions.
guarantee by law to outlaw all of fascists groups like Azov etc,denounce Bandera as UA national hero...enough for start?
most important is that there will be no repeating of situation from spring of 2014 with all of consequences.
Blacklabel
When the bank deposits and weapons shipments from good ole Joe don’t show up anymore because he ran out of both.
mikeylikesit
And what if a coup happens in Ukraine first? What then?
mikeylikesit
Ukraine and Russia share a land border that is nearly 2000 kilometers long. That’s hardly a “bridge,” and nobody is going to dig a 2000-km moat around Ukraine.
And if you’re talking about Crimea, most of this war has revolved around provinces that aren’t on the Crimean peninsula. Yes, Ukraine wants Crimea back, but they have a little problem in Donetsk first.
TaiwanIsNotChina
Imagine cynically betraying your country because an old man beat an even more criminal old man.
TaiwanIsNotChina
Sea coast is pretty darn valuable. If the Kerch Bridge, the Black Sea fleet, and Crimea are all being shelled on the daily, Putin will get in his thick skull where he went wrong.
Blacklabel
ukraine is not my country.
how would supporting them indefinitely until we run of out money and weapons for ourselves betray my country?
theResident
guarantee status of UA as neutral country,fix new UA borders based on reality of these days.
No @Eastman: That's only a reality in the heads of Russian and this who support Russia like yourselves. You think if Ukraine relinquishes that land that be the last place that Putin wishes to conquer? Unlikely. There are other parts of other countries he has interest in, as you well know.
@mikeylikesit: Possible but highly unlikely. @Blacklabel - The US and theWest will keep providing, even if its Trump in the White House come Jan 2025. Sorry to disappoint you.
TaiwanIsNotChina
You know who is responsible and what tsar he trying to emulate.
Russia only has 4x the population, which is overcomable. Any other advantages have been and will continue to be overcome due to Russian incompetence and demoralization.
Guess it is good the primary backer is the US, then. Haven't even noticed Putin's war here.
A ceasefire backed by every NATO weapon except nukes, yeah.
Russia can't afford either demand or enforce them.
I suspect Tsar Putin wanted more than just a few scraps from this escapade.
Russia won't be guaranteeing anything because the so-called Russian speakers are already under their control. They didn't give a damn about the others, either, I'm sure.
Russia won't be dicatating any nonsense provisions, particularly when they are the chief fascists.
Russia's invasions will be prevented by the NATO weapons. Ukraine will be permanently as hostile to Russia as a country can be.
TaiwanIsNotChina
Because your ability to feed yourself depends on the US not being the only country in the world not under the thumb of the dictator cabal of Russia and China.
Blacklabel
Does it really now?
sounds like irrational hyperbole to me?
why could I not even feed myself if US doesn’t indefinitely support Ukraine?
rainyday
The two sides have mutually exclusive demands - neither can accept what the other wants in order to end the war - so the fighting will go on until the situation changes enough that one of the sides change their demands to something it is possible for the other side to agree to.
This is possible, though hard to predict since events on the ground have already radically shifted each sides' expectations as the war has progressed.
In the first few weeks of the war there were some negotiations and Russia probably could have gotten a deal that, if it were offered today, it would jump at. That was because with the Russian army bearing down on Kyiv the Russians had a lot of leverage, and the Ukrainians were way more willing to compromise.
But the Russians themselves at that point had different demands than they do today - they still thought they could capture all of Ukraine and weren't really willing to accept anything short of Ukrainian surrender. While If Russia had just demanded Ukraine recognize Russian control of Crimea and the Donbass at that point, it seems possible that Ukrainian leaders facing the risk of defeat might have agreed to it.
When the Russian advance on Kyiv was defeated and the Ukrainians started pushing the Russians back elsewhere though, everything changed and Russia lost its dominant position in negotiations. Russia couldn't credibly threaten Kyiv, and Ukraine became way less willing to negotiate on anything short of Russia leaving all Ukrainian territory.
We're pretty much stuck until one side gets some leverage over the other and can force negotiations to progress really.
Jind
Wars are started by USA's war equipment industries.
They make a ton of money making all types of war needs and they line the pockets of the politicians.
If they find another place for USA to be confrontational and dupe another country into war, they will move on from Ukraine to the new funding (war) grounds.
Sven Asai
What a question. It only takes two international phone calls, one to Kiyiv and one to Moscow.
rainyday
No, Russia's invasion of Ukraine was started by Russia invading Ukraine.
Eastman
rainyday
Russia's invasion of Ukraine was started by Russia invading Ukraine...because... your sentence is unfinished...
TaiwanIsNotChina
Nothing left to finish. If Russia had an issue with NATO it could have raised it like an adult rather than making demands and saying it is go time for no immediate reason. If it had an issue with the shelling in the Donbas it could have brought in observers like an adult. If it had concerns about Nazis... well, it could have sorted out its own problems first.
rainyday
Because Russia is led by a raving lunatic.
Thanks for the reminder to finish that thought.
cleo
...because Putler surrounded himself with yesmen who let him think it would be a walk in the park, Ukrainians would welcome russian troops with hugs and flowers, there would be a victory parade in Kyiv within a week.
...because Putler never got over the loss of the Soviet Union and thought it was his destiny to recreate it.
...because Putler had no intention of sticking to the agreements that obliged him to respect and protect Ukraine's sovereignty.
....because Putler is a lying weasly wannabe tzar.
Redemption
Mr. Putin has to go one way or another. There is no way Russia would accept defeat.
kibousha
Putin gone will not end the war, he's not alone. If he's threatened by foreign force, he'll launch the nukes. Only thing that could end his regime without ending the world, is the age-old peasants' revolt.
Redemption
Actually Mr. Putin will face the grim reaper soon enough as we all will.
Marc Lowe
Nobody here knows anything. Am I the only one? To end the war it would take a surrender or mutual agreement. Easy. Why is this even being asked and argued about?
TaiwanIsNotChina
Yeah, a mutual agreement that Russia screwed up after being turned out on its rear.
Ass
This
Allan
Maybe similar to what happened in Afghanistan against the Mujahideen. A long protracted war with continued fierce resistance from the Ukrainians. Eventually a change in leadership in Russia and a withdrawal.
Garthgoyle
Would a bullet in Putin's head finish it, or would that start even more and worse things?
kohakuebisu
Yeah, 10 years.
If Biden loses or has a health problem and cannot run, perhaps things change.
Mr Kipling
It will end when Ukraine / NATO accept the reality, we’ll, they already know how the borders will look when this conflict is over. That is fairly similar to how they are at present. Of course they will not say this in public but that is the reality. Sad that many more Ukrainian and Russians will die before the inevitable happens.
Raw Beer
It will only end when the West gives up on trying to destroy Russia.
La vie douce
" It will only end when the West gives up on trying to destroy Russia."
This is it...which means it will take a long time.
Wick's pencil
After the next US election if Trump or RFK wins.
Strangerland
If Russia stops fighting, the war ends.
If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends.
Strangerland
Or, the defeat or Russia, or Russia turning tail and leaving.
Those latter options are much more likely.
Strangerland
Yes, we can assume that either of these people would entirely capitulate to Putin and Russia.
Blacklabel
Publicly criticism of NATO by a whining Zelensky might finally do it.
he has zero to be “outraged” about after 1.5 years of getting for free in excess of everything he actually needed.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/zelenskyy-outraged-biden-rejects-ukraines-nato-membership-unprecedented-absurd
Strangerland
You sound very, very angry about this. Have you complained to someone who matters?
Mark
One side loosing.
albaleo
I don't think it's so simple. There was war of a kind in east Ukraine before the Russian invasion. What would the people from those areas do if Russia moved out? I still don't hear anyone saying the people of those areas should decide their future.
TaiwanIsNotChina
So Russia ruined its international reputation and its trade with the west for a land bridge when they had a sea one already? Pretty meager outcome for them. I'm glad you acknowledge this is the most they will get, though.
TaiwanIsNotChina
Due to Russia. Any sort of legitimate homegrown insurgency would have been fought with pistols if Russia hadn't gotten involved.
Live under democratic Ukraine's jurisdiction as they were supposed to since 1991.
TaiwanIsNotChina
Clearly not because no one disputes Ukraine hasn't fought hard, yet there are terrorists still on their land.
TaiwanIsNotChina
Gee, I guess we'll have to way that against his country being under horrendous assault. The calculation still says to give weapons.
Blacklabel
such a kind way to say they are corrupt.
and that they have to make some actual progress in the proxy war after being give 100s of billions in money and weapons.
TaiwanIsNotChina
They are coming out of a corrupt Russian influenced system and martial law from having to kick the Russians out.
I'd say turning the Russians back from Kyiv, Kharkiv, and Kherson ain't nothing.
Strangerland
You're putting the cart before the horse. You don't decide if the people of an area want to separate from their nation while they are under forceful occupation by a foreign invader. You expel the foreign invader, and let the people decide democratically how they want to proceed.
Blacklabel
wasn’t that since 1991? So they had 32 years already and not even close to being not corrupt yet? How long more do you imagine this to take?
that’s so long that my child has been born and by now had their own child who is entering high school next year.
TaiwanIsNotChina
Fortunately actual patriots realize that holding back the Russian is important enough to spend money on, particularly when it costs zero US lives.
Blacklabel
Not if Zelensky doesn’t stop the constant whining and demanding they don’t.
Criticizing NATO as soon as they finally deny something he wants one time? bad move.
Strangerland
Says the guy who has been pushing for Ukraine to surrender from the start. Which would be an actual "bad move".